Guest -Dance Medicine Athletic Trainer from George Mason University School of Dance

July 30, 2026

Details

Introduction and Professional Background: Karina Klepach introduced Jena HH, who is a dance medicine athletic trainer and educator at George Mason University School of Dance (00:00:02). Jena HH has worked as a clinician for 15 years, with 10.5 years at the university and prior experience as a contractor for performers at Disneyland. Additionally, Jena HH is the founder of the Skilled Collection, a platform focused on parent-facing child movement and clinical education (00:01:19).
Entry into Dance Medicine: Jena HH described their path into the field as originating from a background in high school cheer and a later interest in sports medicine. After being asked to work backstage for a University of Idaho dance performance, Jena HH identified dancers as a unique population requiring specialized athletic support, which led to a career focused on the intersection of dance and medicine (00:02:43).
The Transcendence of Dance: Jena HH expressed that dance offers a transcendent experience for audiences, where dancers create beauty that impacts viewers emotionally (00:05:09). Karina Klepach agreed, noting that this sense of fluidity and energy is similar to the movement found in Qigong, leaving audiences in a changed state (00:06:25).
Defining Organizing Patterns: Jena HH explained that the "organizing pattern" refers to why a dancer's body might fail to perform a specific movement or why it feels difficult. The focus is not just on muscle tightness, but on why the brain is sending signals that result in imbalanced length-tension relationships. Jena HH emphasized that the body is highly intelligent and that clinicians must look beyond the immediate area of pain to understand the systemic cause (00:09:15) (00:15:36).
Systematic Evaluation and Clinical Tools: To address movement issues, Jena HH uses systematic evaluations, specifically the Selective Functional Movement Assessment (SFMA), which is reserved for medical professionals. This system helps categorize bodies based on missing movement pieces, moving away from orthopedic tests that only identify ligament tears without explaining the underlying cause of the injury (00:11:17) (00:13:33). Jena HH has presented on these systematic evaluations at the International Association for Dance Medicine and Science (IADMS) conferences (00:12:29).
Limitations of Orthopedic Surgery: Karina Klepach highlighted the issue with standard orthopedic approaches, noting that surgeons are trained to operate rather than analyze whole-body mechanics (00:16:32). Karina Klepach shared a personal experience where a specialist recommended surgery for a meniscus tear, but the diagnostic process failed to address why the tear occurred in the first place (00:17:42).
Conservative Treatment and Research: Karina Klepach noted that, in their experience, conservative treatment was successful, citing research that suggests sham surgeries for meniscus tears can be as effective as actual repairs, which are also associated with higher risks of long-term arthritis. Both speakers emphasized that the goal is to avoid unnecessary medical interventions through better initial assessment (00:16:32) (00:20:58).
The Role of Dance Teachers: Jena HH and Karina Klepach discussed the reality that while dance teachers may lack the capacity to individually manage every student's injury, they are not acting maliciously. Teachers are responsible for guiding groups of students, and while some elite teachers have developed nuanced ways to help themselves, it is often outside their scope to diagnose the underlying causes of a specific student's struggle (00:22:16).
Addressing Anatomical Limitations and Body Shaming: Karina Klepach described the problem of dance environments where students are shamed or labeled as "not trying" when they are physically unable to perform certain moves due to anatomical limitations (00:24:48). Jena HH added that issues like tibial torsion or hip socket angles can make certain movements, such as parallel positions in modern dance or turnout in ballet, structurally difficult for some dancers (00:26:02) (00:32:16).
Collaborative Communication: Jena HH and Karina Klepach agreed that the solution lies in better communication (00:23:24) (00:31:20). When teachers are provided with information or explanations regarding a dancer's anatomical limitations, they are often receptive and eager to find solutions, suggesting that studios should be open to dialogue between parents, dancers, and clinicians (00:30:14).
Professional Support and Re-evaluation: Jena HH recounted an anecdote about a professional dancer who had a significant discrepancy in hip external rotation that went unaddressed by other practitioners. Jena HH emphasized the importance of seeking out qualified physical therapists and continuing to search for answers if the first intervention does not resolve the issue (00:28:17).
Identifying Anatomical Variations: Karina Klepach shared personal anecdotes about receiving dismissive feedback regarding a dancer's anatomy, such as being told a dancer would never be professional due to flat feet (00:35:32). Jena HH reinforced that such comments are inaccurate and that teachers should be trained to recognize that body structures, like feet, adapt to functional usage (00:38:02).
Prop Usage and Body Feedback: Jena HH explained that at the collegiate level, they use props under the toes to provide feedback that alters pelvic and hip alignment, helping dancers understand how to optimize their body mechanics from the inside out (00:39:05).
Developmental Patterns in Young Dancers: Jena HH stated that young dancers under the age of nine often possess innate neurological patterns for movement, such as breathing, rolling, and lunging. The goal of training should be to preserve these natural patterns rather than forcing adult-style training or overriding them with excessive aesthetic cues (00:41:21).
Advocating for Informed Training: Karina Klepach and Jena HH discussed the responsibility of studios to elevate their teaching standards to include understanding of these neurological patterns. Parents are encouraged to advocate for their children by gathering information and seeking resources, rather than accepting old-school methods that rely on "weeding out" dancers with unusual anatomy (00:46:09).
Motor Control and Stretching: Jena HH noted that historical physical education models focused on fundamental motor control practices like hopping, skipping, leaping, and galloping, which contribute to healthier adulthood (00:48:40). Regarding flexibility, Jena HH advised against holding stretches for more than 30 seconds, noting that over-stretching does not inherently lead to better performance (00:49:40).
The Shift in Dance Trends: Karina Klepach criticized modern trends in ballet where the focus has shifted toward extreme, "circus-like" tricks rather than grace and artistic expression (00:53:04). Both participants lamented that this focus on sensationalism creates a cycle that puts immense strain on dancers' bodies (00:51:32).
Defining a Thriving Dancer: Jena HH concluded that a thriving dancer is defined by body, mind, and soul integration. This involves expressing emotion through the heart rather than just performing for entertainment, which leads to a more magnetic and sustainable performance style (00:54:27).
Essential Focus Areas for Dance Moms: Jena HH outlines three key areas for parents to prioritize when supporting dancers: strength, communication, and fun. Regarding strength, Jena HH advises that if a dancer pursues flexibility, their strength must match that level, noting that while professional collegiate standards require 25 repetitions of relevés on a single leg, 18 to 20 repetitions is a more realistic goal for high schoolers (00:58:02) (01:01:43). For communication, Jena HH encourages parents to engage in dialogue by asking questions about the dancer's experience and using positive reframing to help them navigate challenges. Finally, Jena HH emphasizes maintaining the element of fun, warning against over-intellectualizing technique and urging parents to keep the child's initial passion for dance at the forefront (01:00:29).
Promoting Body Intelligence: When asked for a primary piece of wisdom for pre-professional dancers, Jena HH emphasizes the importance of trusting the body's intelligence. Jena HH explains that encouraging this physical and mental trust empowers dancers to challenge norms, such as specific aesthetic standards like hip rotation, and to advocate for their own interests regarding skill development (01:02:50). Karina Klepach notes that this approach is beneficial for life beyond dance, as it teaches children to understand their bodies and pursue a well life regardless of their future career path (01:03:52).
Dance as a Positive Intervention: Jena HH identifies dance as a potentially effective treatment for anxiety and depression. The participants discuss the need to address instances where some teaching styles may inadvertently cultivate problems, and they agree on the importance of guiding dancers toward the beautiful experience of dance to keep them engaged (01:04:55).
Future Research on Snapping Hip Syndrome: Jena HH provides a preview of a future discussion topic regarding "snapping hip" syndrome, a condition frequently experienced during leg movements like battement to the front or core work. Jena HH notes frustration with common clinical advice—which is typically limited to stretching or strengthening—and mentions that they have been conducting research on how to specifically test for and resolve this pattern. This issue is identified as common in performing arts such as dance, cheer, and figure skating (01:06:00).
Resources and Conclusion: Jena HH invites listeners to reach out with questions via email or Instagram (01:07:01). Due to managing clinical work and parenting part-time, Jena HH notes that response times may vary (01:08:04). For parental resources, individuals are encouraged to visit "The Skilled Collection" on Instagram, and for clinician-focused information, they can visit "@hhjenna". Karina Klepach concludes by highlighting the importance of parents moving away from a "drop-off" culture and instead staying actively involved in the dancer's journey to ensure they thrive as both dancers and future humans (01:09:01).

Jena Hansen-Honeycutt, DAT, MS, LAT, ATC, PES is a dance medicine athletic trainer and educator at George Mason University School of Dance. She has 15+ years of experience working with elite dancers and complex cases. She is a founder of The Skilled Collection (parent-facing child movement platform) and clinical education at jenahansen.com. One of her signature foci is: snapping hip. She focuses on integrative approach spanning biomechanics, breath, posture, strength, and Chinese medicine (Qigong). You can also find her on Instagram @hhjena!

Jena mentioned IADMS -International Association of Dance Medicine and Science. You can find more information here: https://iadms.org/

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Karina: welcome, Jena. This is super exciting for me because this is our first time getting together officially into a podcast episode.

We had awesome conversations before, and this is just such a a beautiful introduction of guests to my podcast. I can't be happier that you are the first person to grace the stage so welcome. And I am going to introduce you briefly and then we are going to dive right in.

Okay, so you are a dance medicine athletic trainer and an educator, and you are at George Mason University School of Dance. Is that right?

[00:00:43] Jena: That's correct.

[00:00:45] Karina: Awesome, and you've been there for quite some time, right? You've been there for over 15 years.

[00:00:50] Jena: I'm actually just 10 and a half here, and- Okay

I've been a clinician for 15 years. Wow. And prior to coming here, I actually [00:01:00] worked backstage at Disneyland as a contractor working with performers.

[00:01:06] Karina: That is amazing, and that is what a lot of the dance moms who are listening are also vying for their kids, to do that competitive dance and go on stages like Disney as well.

I think that's a really nice background here. Okay, and you're also a founder of the Skilled Collection, right, which is a parent-facing child movement platform, and also a clinical education, right?

[00:01:30] Jena: Correct, yes.

[00:01:30] Karina: Awesome. So you've got a whole wide range of experience and education to really, this wisdom to bring for us.

And you also have a very specific niche that you focus on which is called the snapping hip, which we will touch on briefly in this conversation. And also you do have an integrative approach, and I think that's one of the reasons why we're so connected so well is that you don't just go one way and one way only.

You really do [00:02:00] have a very holistic way that you see challenges and successes in dancers. I am excited to chat with you. So tell me what exactly brought you into dance, and why do you think that dance is an important aspect for you?

[00:02:20] Jena: Thank you for having me on. I'm super excited to be here.

And my introduction to the dance medicine world was I think a little, surprising to my, to myself because I did like high school cheer and low level performance stuff. And- ... I think in the town I grew up in, there just wasn't a ton of opportunities for that to happen. I did it, I enjoyed it, I loved it.

But then when I got into college, I decided, oh, I wanna do sports medicine athletic training. I think this sounds like super interesting and like very puzzle based in ways. And [00:03:00] I find that interesting. And what happened was I was in school thinking I was gonna work with like football or soccer or whatever sport I was gonna kinda specialize in.

And my professor asked me to come work backstage for one of the, the school of dance's performances at University of Idaho. They have a pretty small dance major program. And it just turned on the light bulb. I was like, oh I love performances.

[00:03:27] Karina: Yeah.

[00:03:27] Jena: Oh, these are a real population who need to be served and let's see what I can learn. And so it just went hard right, let me see what I can do. And yeah, just followed the thread for many years, finding, other professors I could learn under, who was publishing, ... and what kind of opportunities were out there that I could make this a, a viable future for myself.

[00:03:50] Karina: How does dance fit in? You got from, okay, I'm gonna work with athletes, to now these super athletes really are what dancers are ultimately, [00:04:00] and it's a whole new level of it. But in general, dance, how do you see that?

[00:04:06] Jena: I have been searching for that answer for a long time, and I listened to a lecture maybe two or three years ago, and I thought, "Oh, I think that's what dance is."

And I think it's really beautiful, so I feel a little emotional about it. But I think dance offers a transcending experience for other people. And,-

[00:04:32] Karina: Oh, I see. So true.

[00:04:34] Jena: All art does that, but I- Yeah ... I, yeah, I just was like, "Oh my gosh, what... Like, why am I interested in helping these people?"

For myself. And then I'm like, "What what am I helping them do?" And they make beauty, and then that beauty gives transcending experiences to other people. So I think that's why I think dance is really important, and [00:05:00] yeah, really honored to be in the field of serving more beauty in the world.

[00:05:05] Karina: Oh, my God. And that's This is so awesome because I'm thinking your, of your focus also in training in Qigong, and I find that modality to literally be this energetic dance that I am not a good dancer. Okay okay, my, my dancer would tell me I am not a dancer. And I... I tried to do Tai Chi, which is different.

I know it's completely different than Qigong. But it's like there is this, the movement and that transcendence that comes from it, and the fluidity of it. It's just so beautiful, and I... Exactly, I could totally relate what you're saying. Every time when I've watched performances that really moved me, that's exactly where we end up at the end of the show.

You're in that completely different energetic state when you leave, and that's the ultimate [00:06:00] experience, right? But then, now I can't see performance through just, oh, I'm just, in the audience just watching it. I always have the, the dance mom lens, and I see potential struggles, and I see some of the challenges that these dancers are experiencing.

And it's becoming more and more visible right now, too, with all of the, all the tricks and the, these things that, that these dancers are supposed to be doing, which kind of takes away from that transcendence experience and puts them in a completely different category it seems like.

So that art form is a, a different space, at least for me. And it... That's exactly how I see it, that, that- transcendence of an experience. That's such, such a beautiful explanation. So then as you work with the dancers can [00:07:00] you tell us a little bit more about what is the organizing pattern of your findings, about the dancers?

It's a unifying kind of a, a thing that when I'm looking at a group of professionals, right? There's something that I see that kind of ties them together.

[00:07:19] Jena: Yeah, I think when I say what's organizing the pattern- my question is why is their body not doing what they want it to do? Or why does it seem harder than it should be? Or-

[00:07:30] Karina: Okay ...

[00:07:30] Jena: sometimes I'm like, the question of when I say what's organizing the pattern, 'cause I feel like so many clinicians out there will just be like, "It's just tight."

But why? Why is it giving the signal, 'cause a muscle's not deciding something. A muscle's only relaying the information from the brain. So Why is there a length-tension relationship that is off? Why is there too much length in this muscle and too much contraction in this one?

Or why does it feels too tight? Or what's not [00:08:00] happening? What- ... didn't move to get that to move? If that makes sense.

[00:08:05] Karina: Yes. Okay, absolutely. And there's so many rabbit holes with those questions that totally makes sense, and I feel like you really hit it because that's what I've been asking for so long of my own dancer so many times.

It's like, "But you're so flexible. You're so bendy over here, but then what's going on over here? Why are your muscles so tight here, but they're just like mwah over there? It doesn't make any sense." And then you look for information, and it really isn't there. And then you think, "Oh, there's just my dancer is the only one who is experiencing this."

So it's- ... in a way, it's good to hear that she's not the only one, that it really is this organizing pattern in dancers.

[00:08:44] Jena: Yeah.

[00:08:44] Karina: Yeah.

[00:08:45] Jena: I've heard too, I took a training too a while ago, and, I think better clinicians are finding they need more systematic eval. You can put people essentially in better categories of like [00:09:00] this body is missing this piece, and this body-

[00:09:03] Karina: Oh

[00:09:03] Jena: missed the piece way, way long ago, and that's why they're at this stage. So-

[00:09:10] Karina: I see Oh, that's awesome. So helpful for dance moms, right? Who want to set their kids straight from the very beginning.

[00:09:21] Jena: Yeah, so I took functional movement screens. It's a, a platform and a assessment tool traditionally used in sports.

And basically they're asking that question of, like, why do some people look like they move better than other people? And how the, how does that help people on the court for sports? And so then it was branched off into dance a little bit, and then I... It's just fallen off the wayside because there's some limitations to the research.

But then there's a, a layer to this training, and it's reserved for medical professionals and called [00:10:00] Select Movement Assessment. Okay. So Selective Functional Movement Assessment, SFMA. And I've written a couple abstracts and presented at some of the IADMS conferences on this. And IADMS is the International Association for Dance Medicine and Science, and they have a- conference. If any dancers, dance educators, or clinicians are interested in looking up some of the stuff that they do wonderful- Yeah ... things. And so I've been doing that for 10 years on the dancers- ... when I got here. And then I was able to essentially, like- The idea is you're not gonna bring the wrong tool to the wrong problem.

If you have a hammer y- or you have a nail, you're not gonna bring a screwdriver to the problem. Correct. Exactly. Okay? That's a nice-

So then- ...

[00:10:51] Karina: nice analogy.

[00:10:51] Jena: Yeah ... then the idea is oh, as a clinician what's their actual problem? What's their problem list? How do I get a really clear picture [00:11:00] of all the things that aren't quite doing the things like I know they could do?

And that system is one way you get a more systematic eval. And then essentially as a clinician you're like, "Okay how do I be really consistent amongst all my patients so that I'm doing all the things I probably need to do, and I'm checking- Yeah ... all the boxes that I could forget and, and-" we have orthopedic tests, which are what we typically learn in our training and education, but basically they just say this ligament is torn or this ligament hurts here. And it's like- ... but why? And what if it's negative? Then you're stuck- Exactly ... as a clinician being like they're still having pain.

Let me try to make up something and figure out why." 'Cause we can use modalities, but the mo- And that's why I say "Oh what's driving the pattern?" 'Cause let's say they're having knee pain, and there's tons of research that says oh, it's coming from the hip, or it could come from the foot- and ankle. And those are all [00:12:00] super helpful, but generally a clinician's still gonna focus on that leg. And like- ... the question is what's happening on the other side?

[00:12:08] Karina: Exactly.

[00:12:09] Jena: What's happening over there? What is it overcompensating for, and what is undercompensating?

And so then with a more systematic eval, you as a clinician can feel like I did the, the checks and balances. Okay, I have a better picture of, where this person fits into it because I've done it so many times, and I see- ... their main struggles and what will...

The question is what will undo them? And then generally that treatment system. You could find ways to- treat the person appropriately. I would say, like I've been- Sure ... playing with like what breaks the mold too. Like what- ... what challenges. 'Cause, generally if a person has like limited joint range, we're gonna do joint mobilizations.

And then- ... a question I, I have is but why? And like what else could I do? What else could they do? [00:13:00] Because we didn't always have this classification of just doing joint mobs. So what else will-

[00:13:04] Karina: Totally ...

[00:13:05] Jena: get them to do what I need them to do with less intervention, 'cause- part of my philosophy also as a clinician is I just don't think I'm that smart. I- Oh. I'm pretty smart, but I think your body's smarter. I think your child's body- The body is so smart ... is way smarter.

[00:13:22] Karina: So true. Yes. Right there on point.

[00:13:25] Jena: So if I can try to get the body to do what I think it should do and make that good environment for it, then I feel like that puts everyone in a better place for success.

[00:13:38] Karina: 1,000%. And, putting it in the context of a, a mini story. So when my dancer was having knee pain, I was thinking it was just something else. And what you're also talking about, this checklist and the, this comprehensive and really truly holistic approach to dancers, not just wellness, but their movement, [00:14:00] wellness of their movement is so essential.

It's y- your type of care has to be literally the first step before they go anywhere to any other specialists. Because otherwise you go into a specialist, which is pretty much 99.9% of the time, I'm going to take a wild guess, and it's going to be an orthopedic surgeon. Orthopedes are focusing, especially if it's really a surgeon, they're trained to do surgery, so their natural way is gonna be, "Okay, when in doubt, cut it out" or, "Okay, this is how you do it," because this is their training, right?

They don't, they're not trained to really look at very holistic ways. They're not meant to look at what really caused it apart from just that localized space. So when our orthopede looked at her knee, "Okay, this is where it hurts? Okay let's do PT. Okay, it didn't work. Okay, let's do MRI.

Oh, you have a [00:15:00] torn meniscus. Okay, here's another surgeon who's actually do surgery." So we go to the surgeon who says yeah, it's not that big, but wait, I can't see it even. Wait, no, I see. Oh, okay, so let's schedule surgery." But there was never this question in the process, why in the world that particular piece- got torn.

It literally made no sense to me. So I started questioning the whole entire body mechanics in that point, right? And this is where we want to get into it because just because a kid has an injury and there's, other stories where moms bring their kids and they have oh, they had terrible fractures in their foot, but then there are other issues that come up, and then there's the hip problem, and then there's the other issues, and it's like what really came?

It's like a chicken or the egg kind of a question, right? And We, I have a clinical [00:16:00] background and I just I jump right away looking for the reasons why as well. Sometimes it's not very helpful 'cause the rabbit holes are so many. But at the same time, it shouldn't really fall on the parents to figure all those points out.

That's why it's so important to have clinicians like you to go to, to say, "Okay, here's the information." Our job as, as dance moms is to collect the information, to have the observational kind of a mindset of seeing, okay, this is when it started, this is how it started, this is how it has progressed.

If it was we don't wanna wait until that pain has been forever, obviously. Don't do that, dance moms. Don't do that, and we're gonna get to that. Just watching it and, because my kid didn't tell me for almost two years. And it was like, "You did not tell me your knee was hurting?"

She's like, "Yeah, I just kinda thought it was, the dance thing. Everybody says their knees hurt." And I actually believed that too, and I was like, "Okay." [00:17:00] And then it kept hurting more and more, and then she couldn't stabilize it and i- it kept buckling. And I was like, okay, this is a real problem.

But, in that context, had we had a clinician like you who would be able to kinda look at all these components, she would've been there to see you long ago before it even, probably even progressed to a full-on tear because she might have also had something else going on that could have been detected way early on.

The end of the story is that we ended up doing, obviously, a, a very conservative treatment. There was no surgery involved. Which by the way, research has come out to say that sham surgeries on meniscus tears actually were as successful, if not more successful, than actual meniscus repair type of surgeries.

And people with the actual meniscus repair surgeries actually had arthritis within like the following 10 or so years. Crazy research. I actually [00:18:00] didn't really know much about that research. It was more like, okay, I did some research on it, but I didn't see those particular studies, so it was interesting that the decision was made that we made that decision.

But, what you're saying in the context of dance moms is so important. That's why this, not necessarily hypervigilance, but like gathering the information and working with your dancer, not just being like farming them out to the studio and expecting studios to know that, right? Because this information is not even on the, f- forget about the forefront front, but like even in the conceptual ideas of dance studios, right?

[00:18:38] Jena: Yeah, I think it's just the conversation isn't there for a lot of reasons. Yeah. But I would just again, I'm not really blaming them. I think that they know how to get a dancer from A to B and how to teach them these things, and

then- When

[00:18:54] Jena: there's hiccups I would say more elite teachers have gone through their own struggles- and [00:19:00] ones that you're gonna find in college or who have professional careers, I think probably know more nuanced ways to go about how to help themselves. But and not saying that, I guess various teachers are not elite, but I think it just is like how... It's not your space either. You're the teacher.

[00:19:22] Karina: Exactly.

[00:19:22] Jena: You have like- Exactly ... 20 people to 40 people to maybe even more in the room, and like- Yeah ... one person having certain struggles, like that's just I think unrealistic for the teacher to know how to navigate that- ... because they're like I'm putting these students through this arc to learn this one movement.

Figure out how to find this in their bodies, and this one is having a struggle, and I can offer something, but..." It's, I just don't think it's their responsibility at the same time. No,

[00:19:52] Karina: exactly. So

[00:19:54] Jena: it's really frustrating though, 'cause you, like as a dancer, 'cause they're like, "But why can't I do that?"[00:20:00]

And it's like, "Well- Yeah ... it just seems like you need a little bit more help," and I think that's where we have to have some grace for all the parties involved of no one's doing anything like maliciously w- wrong generally, I think. They

[00:20:12] Karina: just

[00:20:12] Jena: don't know.

[00:20:14] Karina: Exactly, and I think this is the conversation that is so important because, we've been through multiple studios and different teachers have different approaches.

And I'd say that honestly the most helpful ones had always been there was an encouragement to attempt to do what is asked, and if there isn't, there is a conversation that was open to say that, "Hey, perhaps there is some PT or something else that, that could be offered." But there was never a shaming in the process.

And then you have the super old school type of setup where you have this like you guys are not doing this correctly," l- looking at one particular kid who literally physically is incapable of doing it and they feel like there's [00:21:00] something wrong with them or with their body, and they just can't do it.

And then they get pushed back. They don't get offered roles, and that's not because they are unwilling, but it's simply because they literally can't do it. And that has happened with my kid so many times. She has hypermobility that we're just finding out, but then there's other issues that were part of it and- The teachers half of the time would think, "Oh, she's just not trying hard enough," and it's and inside she's literally are screaming, she's screaming that she can't get to where she wants to get to.

But she's not having that visibility to say that, "Hey, I can see you trying. Maybe we could do it in this other way, and there's these other resources I can share with you that you can go check out," right? And I think that's the only role of a teacher, just if we think about a teacher in school.

If they see a kid struggle, they're not just gonna be punishing them. That used to be the case, [00:22:00] right? They'll punish the kid, they'll put them in the corner and be like, "You can't read? How dare you?" And then now we know, right? So we get these kids more help, they get assistance or they get the extra tutoring, et cetera, et cetera.

So there's that support. But in dance it's like that body shaming from a different perspective, that it's like you're just not trying hard enough. Think that's the, the basic skill that pretty much every studio owner needs to acquire to say that everybody is different. Just because you are able to do it this way doesn't mean everybody else can.

[00:22:36] Jena: Yeah. Different angles of hip bone, the femur and-

[00:22:41] Karina: Yeah ...

[00:22:41] Jena: it's gonna make certain things really challenging. And depending on the specialty, more contemporary, modern and you're trying to be more parallel but you were, predominantly in ballet and

what is the training background that makes it more difficult? What are the angles of your actual hip socket? How is that [00:23:00] challenging? And I think once dancers know, at the stage like when I reach them, I'm like, "Oh, I think..." It hasn't caused any problems yet, but now it's causing problems.

Maybe we need the help of imaging to know those angles- ... which is super helpful for orthopedics. Yes. But the ones I've worked with generally, and they're like- Okay, that all seems normal. They just push the problem back to me- ... and they're like, "Okay, go fix it." So that's nice where they're like, "Okay, not yet.

Try PT again, essentially. Do it again, Jena." Okay. Or or if they're predominantly trying to get more turnout, like how is that- ... and they're have more of a ballet focus, why is it limiting? It's funny 'cause I had a, a professional dancer come through on tour, and I offered to just help a little bit 'cause they were really struggling with something, and I noticed- a really big discrepancy in hip range of motion for external rotation, and they're like- ... "Oh, this is just what I always thought it was." And- Oh ... this is a professional dancer, mind you. She has her own PT. [00:24:00] Sh- regularly goes to them, and I'm like, "Yeah, that's easily fixable. What, why are we trying to operate from a training of one side can do so much more than the other side?"

That's just not how we develop. So I think that's one idea I'd really push back on of like- ... generally within a couple degrees, if it's off 15 or 20 what's going on? Why is your body taking that away? Yes. And why did it take away for so long? I think we cleared it up that session, but I would just, I think there's a lot of- Yeah

great PTs out there, and so- I would just encourage, like maybe if you didn't find a good one the first time to help try again.

[00:24:37] Karina: Yeah.

[00:24:37] Jena: And I think that's what I'm saying in a loving position that the orthopedic surgeons I work with, they're like- "oh, no. Try again, Jena. This isn't my problem- ... to fix. You better do a better job."

[00:24:47] Karina: I think, it also goes down even deeper to the concept of accepting the unacceptable in dance culture. It's just such a prevalent theme that I see all the time. [00:25:00] And when it comes to pain, range of motion, and all sorts of different things that have to do with body mechanics, because obviously dancers use their body as the instrument for their careers, that, that acceptance and we as dance moms who are not dancers- We don't have that concept, so we can't say, "Wait a second.

No, that's not normal. Let's go and check this out." But the culture, and that's where I was saying that, the studio is responsible for watching that. That's where it's like they're not responsible to fix it, but they're responsible to understand where that dancer fits in the true normal, not the accepted unacceptably normal, but the true normal, right?

And that's where it should be a conversation with a parent to say, "Hey, I notice your dancer's struggling with this," in a way that is supportive and encouraging to go fix it as opposed

to "And

[00:25:57] Karina: therefore, she's not gonna be part of that [00:26:00] 0.00001% who's gonna make it." It's that's, that what we wanna hear as parents.

We just want someone to tell us, "Okay, this is how it is. And, th- these are the resources because I've watched your kid." And isn't that the ultimate job of a teacher of that kind, you know, in that position to, to watch for that?

[00:26:22] Jena: Yeah, I think that's where I think also dance teachers probably just need some explanations, because as soon as I give my faculty "Oh, this is the reason they can't do that.

We're working on solutions to that," they just are like, "Oh, great." They love help. So- ... I really-

[00:26:44] Karina: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So that continuing education in something like this would be amazing, right?

[00:26:51] Jena: Yeah. It really would, and so if you hear, I would say as a parent, you hear your dancer complain of "Hey, I still can't do this, I still can't do [00:27:00] this" - that's an easy conversation, I think, between you and the dance teacher and your child of "What do you think we should do about it? It's been, like, two months and they still can't get this skill. What's the missing piece?" Yeah. I think just opening up the conversation of "Oh, you're still struggling with that?"

You know- ... generally strength gets better if you're doing things, like, in a month or two, and if that's really what doesn't move the needle, then, what else can we figure out? And the teachers I work with, honestly they are like, "Oh, yeah," they love help and love-

understanding those things. So-

[00:27:36] Karina: Good ...

[00:27:36] Jena: I think it's coming. And, new dancers who graduated are- Yes ... coming into the field and being the predominant teachers as well. So there's a trickle-down effect I think happening and...

[00:27:48] Karina: Yeah. One would hope.

[00:27:49] Jena: But I hear what you say because for example, somebody with the, it's a medical condition where you have tibial torsion.

The tibia is- ... externally [00:28:00] rotated. It could also be internally rotated too, but it's a- ... bony deformation is- Yeah ... an example where if someone's in modern class and their feet are just a little bit externally rotated, that's neutral for them.

[00:28:11] Karina: Yeah. Yes.

[00:28:12] Jena: But it's not socially acceptable in that form.

[00:28:16] Karina: Absolutely. Yes, 'cause they have to be super parallel.

[00:28:19] Jena: Yeah. And then if you have tibial torsion and you don't do ballet, externally rotated tibial torsion, then you're at an advantage to the person next to who doesn't have it. So it's these- So true ... little nuances of maybe there's a bony deformation helping you get all your turnout, because- I think the turnout conversation is happening of decreased turnout, the hip should be providing it- ... as an example, but I don't think on the reverse of what's normal in modern is happening- Yeah ... always either.

[00:28:52] Karina: Yeah.

[00:28:52] Jena: Or contemporary class. And

[00:28:52] Karina: those in a way not typical torsions is what's praised- In a [00:29:00] lot of ballet, right?

And that's where certain things, like I see also the hyperextension of the knee is often praised as well, which isn't really a typical thing for a knee to be that hyperextended. And I'm giving that also as an example because while my kid is hypermobile, her knees are not hypermobile at all.

In fact, they're hypermobile in the opposite direction. And so she would always get yelled at to straighten her knees, and she'd be like, "But I am, like, I'm pulling them as much as I can," but they just wouldn't go that way. And so then, if the teachers knew, if there's that gap of knowledge that was closed and they knew that there's this literally an anatomical variation, especially when we're talking about dancers, I think the anatomical variations, it's like if there's gonna be any, like this is the field where pretty much all of them end up coming to.

And so you see so many different variations, I'm sure of these anatomical things that are like, [00:30:00] oh, half of which really help the dance, and then others they're just Then the other side is like, "But why can't I do that?" Because they're literally on the exactly opposite side of that spectrum, right?

[00:30:12] Jena: Yeah. I laugh at it too, and I, but I know from the dancer's perspective, they're like, "But I just want it to do this." And I'm like- ... "I understand your frustration. We are given a body and we gotta learn how to work with it. Here are some tips to-"

[00:30:27] Karina: Yeah ...

[00:30:27] Jena: how do you work with it and-

[00:30:30] Karina: Yeah

[00:30:30] Jena: Yeah,

[00:30:31] Karina: it's I just keep thinking back to, because my dancer always had a challenge with her feet. Like that's a- also one place that she never had an arch. In fact, she in essence has flat feet and we've gone through all the sorts of ways and tried to get her that arch through massage and different work, but just thought it was just her body.

But when I would come to this one particular studio [00:31:00] a, a teacher Is a super professional dancer, and that dancer had n- zero knowledge of like different anatomies it seemed like. Her answer to me was that Black people have flat feet and therefore she's just stuck with it forever and she's never gonna be a professional dancer.

So when you get an answer like this, you're just like, "Huh, interesting," except for I don't accept those kinds of answers as normal. When someone tells you that, it's like, okay okay, but she's also half Russian, so let me tell you, there's gotta be something else. But, a, a teacher who's actually trained to understand the varieties of bodies would have actually seen that as a sign of something to check on.

Like right now I'm seeing it as actually a sign of a particular syndrome that just now we're [00:32:00] finding out is that which has been one of the issues why my dancer has had these kinds of problems along the dance path. When the dance teacher has an open mind, has gone through additional training about the body, that could elevate their their ability to produce dancers who are healthy and capable with what they've got, right?

And then you could do choreography in a way that actually helps the dancers to use what they've got as opposed to pushing them in a direction where they fail, right?

[00:32:38] Jena: Yeah, I think that's a horrible comment. I would say- we laughed. You're onto something- We did laugh. ... though about the foot is telling you something.

And that's what I mean is like why is the arch not springing or what needs to change? Or what, what's happening with like the responsive tissue all the way up the [00:33:00] chain? And yeah, the foot is going to change predominantly from how you use it. So- ... if you don't use it in a way that's functional, it's going to adapt so that it can do the things it needs to do.

A flatter foot, depending on if it's forefoot, midfoot, rearfoot, 'cause there's reasons why for each one. And is there a problem with the most distal arch, like between all the toes? Is it not able to do that? And then like what's happening... 'Cause at this level, when you get to college, I get to play with, all right, when we add this prop under this toe, what changes in your pelvis?

And we can start to feel those things from the inside out of how we work with our own body of "Oh, it needs this feedback. And when I get that feedback on my toe, my hip externally rotates more. Ah, that was the thing I wanted." So like you're actually just taking into account, like as a dancer, as a dance mom- Yes

like all the [00:34:00] things that probably could add up to a real story of why- ... is the body doing this, rather than just dismissing... There's hard anatomy things to dismiss, and then I think there's hard anatomy things you're like, but why? Why is- the foot doing this structure now? Why is it collapsing on itself?

And so then I think it's more interesting, as a dancer because, trying to tie it back into performance, it's like- ... one of the things I feel like I love the most about some of, one of our faculty is that she teaches a ton of head to tail connection.

Can a dancer- ... connect from head to, to tail in a flexion pattern? And can they also do a beautiful extension pattern? Because when that starts to organize of ... oh, I know a nice beautiful contraction, and I'm not extending my head to do my contraction- ... and they start dropping their head down and in, and they feel that beautiful contraction, and then like they also have beautiful [00:35:00] extension lines and feel more open and extended in their arabesques, then I find that in those scenarios, the dancer starts to succeed more because they're starting to notice- I don't know what happened somewhere.

I think the line is around 12 to 15. But I think in younger kids, the patterns are still pretty pure. They're still having like a, a little nerdy side, but it's when a baby is born, all their neurological patterns of how they are going to breathe, how they're going to roll over, how they're going to crawl, how they're gonna lunge, how they're gonna walk- all start to develop in a beautiful central nervous system forward way. They're using- ... their sensory system to develop their- ... movement patterns.

[00:35:50] Karina: Yeah. No,

[00:35:50] Jena: makes sense. Okay. So then, and then something of happens around this I'm gonna say eight, nine, 10-year-old transition, and [00:36:00] we have a lot of kids specializing in all kinds of things.

You could have a, a child who's doing dance and another one's doing soccer. And- what are those sports pushing that aren't neurologically already there? Like, why are they trying to override that information? Unless the kid has a neurological development problem, which they probably- were getting PT for anyways at that age. Yeah. But if they were developing normally neurologically, I think at the highest, the most elite level of these teachers at the universities- ... they're teaching those patterns that were innate in children.

[00:36:36] Karina: Oh, how fascinating.

[00:36:39] Jena: So we're coming full circle- Wow.

... Back to what I say to that teacher. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I love all the combos she makes because she's practicing flexion with rotation." And- ... and so it's a contraction with a, a spiral opening to one side, and spiraling to the other. But not spiraling and then extending, because it's [00:37:00] dysfunctional.

Yeah. And what happened though is in, generally, I think the nine and under phase, these kids have it in them. So I don't want them to dance it out. Yeah. I want them to keep it. And I think- Yes ... that's where, if we can maybe change some of the education around what are kids doing for training.

'Cause I don't think they should train like adults- ... because we're fixing our old patterns and problems. So let's try to use that information that the body has that's really intelligent. That's why I say I'm not smarter than it. And then- ... use that forward, and then I think you just have beautiful, integrated dancers who know how to do things.

And we're not pushing the limits too much. We're like, "Oh, when is it gonna come?" 'Cause it will come with the right strengthening and training, versus, like, pushing too much in one direction. Too much hamstring flexibility is an example, and then I think that causes pelvis [00:38:00] instability, so- How do we get that posterior chain, find s- 'cause the other thing that's happening, I think, in these 12 to 14 to 16-year-old dancers is the, the mental load of cues that they're doing to get their body to do the shape.

That's not fun. You can ask... I think it's a great conversation. What do you think about to do a plie?" You see them do- ... your dancer do tons of plies and the question could be, like, "How could you think of one thing that would achieve all of those cues?" Versus the fix, fix- Yeah.

[00:38:35] Karina: Yeah ...

[00:38:36] Jena: down the system. That's- Ah ... that's easy fix I think of, like, how do we come full circle-

[00:38:43] Karina: Yeah ...

[00:38:43] Jena: back to what's beautiful, and then how do we carry that forward so that, I think, generations don't have these problems with their physical bodies.

[00:38:53] Karina: Yeah. And, no, this is also such a beautiful process because these dancers are learning [00:39:00] a whole new paradigm of how to train, and that is what's also been missing so much in the dance world.

What I'd see a lot of times, these dance parents who have a dancer who has who has a talent and who has this drive, and then they put them they look for the, the elite studios that are, oftentimes are based on this really old school someone who's danced at a very professional, high-end place that had the old school kind of ways of basically weeding out those with, on the other spectrum of the unusual anatomy and taking those with that unusual anatomy and then pushing them through even further without the consideration of this gap and actually teaching the appropriate neurological patterns as opposed to reinforcing the inappropriate ones.

And then wondering why are these dancers having so many problems?" All of these stories [00:40:00] that we hear, Misty Copeland's and the Tyler Pecks of the world. and they're dramatizing those issues, but they didn't need to happen. It did not need to get to that point.

And there's no blame or shame, it's just that, that lack of understanding, not from a malicious perspective, it's just that they know only what they know and they do the best with what they have. But I think at this point, the responsibility has to shift for the studios to really elevate their knowledge to the next level because we do know better at this point.

And it, it could be falling back to the parents to say- "Hey I just learned from the podcast, from Thriving Dancers podcast, and I think it's that you should listen

to." Th-

[00:40:48] Karina: I think that's important, and when you have a studio that is responsive, they could say, "Aha, that's a very interesting point.

I didn't think about it. Let me research more because I care about my [00:41:00] dancers. It's not about me just pushing you because I know that's the way it has worked for me, and it has worked for those other dancers, but let me elevate it to the next level to really understand how I can help all the dancers that come through my door

[00:41:15] Jena: Yeah, I think it's twofold too 'cause- like parents want their kids to have skills. And then you're like, "But at what cost- ... do you want that skill?" And I had talked to a, a friend of mine and he was a clinician like me, and we had wonderful conversations about did you know that in the, I'm gonna say '80s, there was a, a physical education model where we're predominantly teaching motor control patterns, which is a fancy word for hop, skip, jump, leap, gallop, and there's a couple more in there, okay?

But essentially, all the movements, some kids, they don't know [00:42:00] how to gallop. And some kids don't know how to skip. But those are motor control practices- ... that used to be taught in physical education. Wow. And so I think that also would have made more or less healthier adults. I-

[00:42:15] Karina: Yeah

[00:42:16] Jena: as a breakdown of we are not moving in dynamic ways, like this is also generally would've been taught in some of these textbooks, I see it still, of what should you teach in a dance class? You should teach kids how to hop on one leg, you should teach them how to hop from one leg to the same leg- ... or leap, which is one leg to the other leg.

It doesn't matter what height, right? And like- Yeah ... as soon as you start practicing these fundamental things, I think the body's like, "Oh, yeah, I know how to do those things," without the aesthetic push. And then as they can get older, then you can push aesthetically for more. But I think-

[00:42:56] Karina: Sure

[00:42:56] Jena: like a, I'm, I just don't know why an eight-year-old has to [00:43:00] have their leg up by their head. Do they know- Or beyond.

[00:43:05] Karina: Or beyond, yeah. That's the thing. Like, all those crazy over-splits, I see it and I'll be like, "How is this even normal? It looks painful," and they're just like smiling, "Oh, it's no big deal."

But the but the reality is that it is a big deal because they really are pushing beyond of what their muscles are even supposed to be doing.

[00:43:23] Jena: Yeah, and then is it having the same control when you come out of it? 'Cause like- Yeah ... they're stretching for too long, for example. Yeah. So in general, you can have the rule you're not gonna stretch anything for more than 30 seconds probably.

You can do it- Yeah ... a couple times, but two times or three times 30 seconds is fine for stretching. And then anything beyond that of 'cause then what I think about, going back to what makes a beautiful performer is- ... their integration.... Does their hop look seamless?

Does it look so beautiful, like so easy? Yeah. And I know there's a lot of work that they've done, these [00:44:00] dancers, when they get to that level to achieve that, and I'm not negating that. Yeah. But I also think that there's like an unlearning at this level, in the collegiate level, that happens-

[00:44:09] Karina: So true

[00:44:10] Jena: that would help, as parents just thinking, "Huh, I, I hear what my kid is pushing for. Can I put the brakes on some of this?" And be like- ... "Why do you want that? Is it gonna give you the right kind of praise in the studio?" Exactly. And do you really need it? What, do you feel good doing it at smaller ranges?

And there's beautiful tricks in professional, dance companies-

[00:44:37] Karina: But

[00:44:38] Jena: I think they're at that level for a reason. So maybe- Well- ... maybe we can take them away from the super young athletes is what I think sometimes. I-

[00:44:47] Karina: it's true, but then at the same time it's but is it really? It depends, I think, on the specific type of dance because I don't want, I personally don't want to see those kinds of tricks in [00:45:00] ballet and they are coming up now.

There's I don't know where that trend had gotten started, but when you look back to 1920s ballet dancers versus now, first of all, the body shape is completely different and I am even, I'm thinking back to, the Russian dancers even, where they started and where they are now, like their primas.

That progression is just, it's honestly heartbreaking and when I watch it, I can't enjoy it because I see the dancer and I feel like either they're about to pass out on stage or that y- they're, it's not that it's like i- it's ingrained in them and it is basically s- it's easy.

But the way that the energy of the frail body that is not really, there, there's no gracefulness in that anymore and like all those tricks and [00:46:00] like super spins and super fast jumps that don't feel natural with their legs in the contorted positions. There's I don't think that a graceful ballet scene was meant to be that way.

But because it's sensational, because it's something that literally nobody else can do, that brings people in, into the theater and it brings money to the theater and therefore I think they perpetrate that and you have this kind of a vicious cycle that basically continues and that's where they look for dancers who fit that model to be like, okay, it's more like a circus than really a ballet performance at this point.

And a sad realization in that and just because somebody's super bendy doesn't mean it's a bad thing. It just means that's, they're just super bendy, the end of that. And I think that's a good actually segue into the [00:47:00] question that I had for you about how you see when you say this is a thriving dancer, what does that really mean from your perspective as a clinician?

[00:47:11] Jena: Yeah, I think I borrow some framework from the medical Qigong training I've done- ... which is what's the body, mind, and soul? Like- Yeah ... how are they all feeling? And 'cause I feel like a, a really powerful dancer and mover is magnetic in, in their body integration. They're expressing something from the mind through the heart, so versus expressing something from the mind.

If you can kind of- Yeah ... understand what I mean by that.

[00:47:45] Karina: Yeah.

[00:47:45] Jena: And then I feel like they're sharing something that's transcending too, of like this was the emotion, and can we as humans recognize that emotion through them sharing it through their heart? Whether it was, [00:48:00] like joy or happiness or sadness or grief or any of those.

I think those are the most captivated performers. And then- ... I think that those people are dancing to the art of dance ra- rather than the, the entertainment dance. And so- ... I would label that kind of dance- as more entertainment-based, and- Yes

it's gonna wear out. And

[00:48:29] Karina: Yeah, it wears their bodies down. It takes it down. That's for sure.

[00:48:31] Jena: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it, it wears on the audience too. It's not the same.

[00:48:37] Karina: It's not. It's not. But I feel like the, the new generation, the, of the dancers you are working with, not the new generation of the dancers I see in the studio right now, like the little ones, but also the generation you are working with I think there is that n- not necessarily a nostalgic kind of a sense of wanting to preserve the art [00:49:00] aspect of dance through the appropriate movement, through the appropriate care of the body for those kinds of movements, but also to just

I, I feel like it's more freeing. That art form can be more freeing as a dancer, as opposed to trying to fit into that entertainment type of dance mold.

[00:49:21] Jena: Yeah, I, yeah, or you take that idea or that concept too and you put it into entertainment because when you have- ... that kind of integrity I think- Good point

as a dancer- Yeah ... you are more magnetic on the musical theater stage. That's just what I- So true ... I think. It's just like- 1,000%. I have not quite I still think like-

[00:49:44] Karina: Yeah.

[00:49:44] Jena: And I think people are figuring it out and, like- Yeah ... you're undoing layers as your time in college or y- you learn so much from high school and your experiences- Yeah

in the studio of dance and then now... But I just think it'd be easier just to keep some [00:50:00] of these fundamental body patterns so that you're, like, supported.

[00:50:04] Karina: That's true.

[00:50:04] Jena: A healthier mind and a healthier heart, and I think that preserves the art of dance.

[00:50:12] Karina: Absolutely. No, I can't agree more.

Absolutely. So okay, so for a few last questions, from your perspective as a clinician, what are the things that you'd say dance moms need to focus on especially, to support their dancers? And if you were to name just about three things if they have three things that

to support their dancer.

[00:50:36] Jena: Yeah. I think one of them is just strength. If your- ... child wants these various flexibility skill sets and more flexibility, then I think the strength should match it. I think that's a easy first one. I have research for what should happen at a professional level, for example.

How strong, dancers' calves should be when they're coming to college or, in [00:51:00] professional programs. And it's about 25, relevés twice or elevés on a single leg. And so that's equivalent to about 50. I could imagine that would backtrack a little bit depending on how much your dancers is doing.

And so maybe a more realistic answer to, someone who's doing maybe 18 to 20, through high school is probably what I could imagine is better. So- that's an example you can find these numbers in collegiate dancers because we're doing the research- of what's norm when you get to this level. But we don't- Yeah ... have it for younger athletes. And so that's-

[00:51:39] Karina: I see ...

[00:51:40] Jena: if, other clinicians are listening, we're open to finding ways to get this information and, Yeah ... to help support moms. Yeah. So then I would say another thing I think we could do as dance moms is probably just ask questions.

"Oh, what was your- ... experience of class? What [00:52:00] did you feel good about?" "What did you find hard?" And I think you're saying it nicely a positive reframe. "Just try it again" or- ... "Oh, maybe we can get more resources on to help you with that." And then I would say maybe- Last maybe just have fun.

That's what's coming to my mind. I hope- ... that the dance is fun for you guys, that it's fun for your child. And I think that's gonna come through in w- way more than a certain skill set. So I think remember, like- Yeah ... why they're dancing in the first place. Yeah.

[00:52:37] Karina: That's so true, and it's so easy to start forgetting it right around that age of 10, 11, especially 12, 13.

That's when those transitions start to happen from from fun to technique. Yeah. Which somehow they don't go together, fun and technique. I don't know why.

[00:52:57] Jena: I don't know. Or I love some of our [00:53:00] teachers, they say "It's a plie, it's not that hard. Don't think about it too much."

... Just back out of some of the mental load because- ... it's happening everywhere. It's like we intellectualize stuff, and then-

[00:53:11] Karina: Yes ...

[00:53:12] Jena: there's no simplicity in it. And- Yes ... that's where I'm trying to pull back, of like there's just some simplicity of, like, how the body functions. Totally. We don't need all these fancy things.

I think it's coming down the pipeline as I, I see the trends of do simple, basic stuff over and over again and you're gonna get good results. So that's where I'm like- Sure ... do some strength have conversations, drive curiosity, and then have fun.

[00:53:36] Karina: Yeah. So then would you say that would be that's three things. And to sum them up maybe into one thing that you'd want dance moms of pre-professional dancers to really know and to walk away with is there one big nugget of wisdom that you'd give them?

[00:53:55] Jena: Yeah, I think it's everyone I try to work with is I think the [00:54:00] body can lead you into n- into knowing.

What I mean by that is the body is intelligent. Can you rely and trust it? Because that kind of trust is beautiful.

[00:54:13] Karina: Yes.

[00:54:13] Jena: You're trusting it physically, you're trusting it mentally, you're trusting it that your soul is in your body, and then-

[00:54:20] Karina: Yeah ...

[00:54:21] Jena: yeah, just I think it, when you have that level of trust it's really empowering.

You can do anything, and you can challenge the norms of your hip doesn't have to be, like, one externally rotated and the other one's not. Like- ... that doesn't seem logical to me. And I feel like that kind of trust, as young kids, as they build that and they don't lose it-

I think they're gonna have challenges to that idea, and that's good.

[00:54:43] Karina: Yeah.

[00:54:44] Jena: But I would just hope that they could walk away with, like, how do we have kids who trust their bodies and- Yes ... are gonna be like, "Yeah, I'm not interested in that skill. I think I'm in this, interested in this one. What are some other ones I can do?"

[00:54:57] Karina: Yes. . I love that. [00:55:00] And that's the just... I think that just empowers dance moms to also empower their dancers, and it's not... what I love about this is that it's not for this moment only. It's literally for life, because we can use dance as the context for learning these skills, but then i- if the dancer's no longer a dancer they choose to have a different path, they still have that skill that could lead them to really understand their bodies better and have ultimately a well life even without being a professional dancer, because let's face it, not everybody's gonna become a professional dancer who dances when they're little.

[00:55:39] Jena: Yeah. They're not. Yeah. And I'll just add I heard of recently 'cause dance is one of the number one things you can do for depression and anxiety. And it's a beautiful treatment, and then it seems like somehow some of the teachings in dance cultivate problems.

How can we drive [00:56:00] people to the beautiful experience of dance- Yeah ... and keep that going?

[00:56:05] Karina: Exactly. So we... I wanted to tease a little bit about your specialty. We're not gonna go into it right now, but we're definitely going to have to schedule another episode, because I think the, the concept of snapping hip is so fascinating.

So if you wanna just give us a, a, a brief a taste for what dance moms can look forward to with our next conversation, that'd be awesome.

[00:56:30] Jena: Yeah, so my I would say like a little specialty I've been driving in it is how to figure out why a, a hip is constantly snapping when they do like battements to the front and, or when they're doing core work.

And maybe you even have it as, the parent where you lower your leg in core work and then it snaps. Yeah. And I hated the information I had from school, and it was just stretch it [00:57:00] and/or strengthen it and it should go away. And It drove me nuts, and so I've been working for a long time and adding pieces together, and I feel like over the past, year or so, I've really made headway of how to test for it, how to make it go away, and what's- driving that pattern specifically, to be really predominate in these like performing arts sports. So dance, cheer- ... and figure skating.

[00:57:26] Karina: Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. Okay. All right. I can't wait to have that episode. That's and there's so much. I just feel like we could learn so much. Every time when we're talking about any aspect of dance, we could just keep on going those rabbit holes over and over again.

But then at the end, they all come together full circle, and it all cultivates in dancer wellness. So that's that's what I love about this, these conversations. Okay. So is there, before we go, is there any other essential things that we did not touch on today that you want to mention?[00:58:00]

[00:58:01] Jena: No, I just wanna say thank you. I loved the, the ebb and flow of the questions and the layers to them, and yeah, I can't wait for more conversations. If people do have questions, I'm- open to being contacted on, you know- Yes ... email or Instagram as well. I'm The Skill Collection. I do this on my part-time, I'm also a-

mom, and so just, ... bear with me if the responses are not full streams, 'cause I do clinical work the full day,

[00:58:32] Karina: yes, you are a busy mom. That's amazing. So thank you, and thank you for taking this time. This was extremely valuable for me as a dance mom, and I'm sure for all the other dance moms listening.

I've learned a lot and just all of these layers of being a dance mom just I don't know, I, it, on one hand, we can get to feel overwhelmed because we can think that, oh, there's just so much for us to think about, but the truth is, and you boiled it [00:59:00] down to some of the essentials, the, the top three.

You just communicate with your kid, pay attention- Continue to bring them back to joy for a dance. That's essential. Paying attention is so important, and I think that that culture of just dropping your kid off and then coming back for them when they're done, and then being like, "How did it go?

Good," and then moving on to another lesson is... That needs to change in order for us to create these thriving dancers, really that are thriving dancers now and thriving humans in the future, and these conversations are so essential. So thank you for taking the time, and we will put all of your contacts in the show notes.

And for now, if you're listening and you want to look up Jena right away, You can look her up on Instagram at H-H-J-E-N-A, and you can also check her website. Remind me again what that is.

[00:59:55] Jena: Yeah. It's the parent-facing one is gonna be The Skilled Collection, and [01:00:00] then if they're a clinician, it's the @hhjena.

But it's... Otherwise, on Instagram, it's the @skilledcollection as well. Okay. Beautiful, and we're going to put this all into the show notes, so reach out with us. If you have any questions, follow-ups, comments, DM us either one of us- ... to tell us how this hit home or if you have additional questions.

Yeah. Thanks for joining us. Bye for now. Bye.

Guest -Dance Medicine Athletic Trainer from George Mason University School of Dance

Details

Sign-up to get updates!